427435
Rochester, Mn
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If the reinforcements are done correctly, you can probably get away with it. I've towed a 5000 lb toad not only to Alaska and back but also over the rockies in Colorado without issues. I would also add a trans temp gauge or a Scangage to keep an eye on the tranny.
Mark
2000 Itasca Suncruiser 35U on a Ford chassis
2003 Ford Explorer toad with US Gear brakes,
ReadyBrute tow bar, and Demco base plate.
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Deen
Vancouver, WA
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tahiti16 wrote:Not only can you not exceed the GCVWR but in CA if what is being towed is over 1500lbs it is required to have brakes. Another wrong statement!
When a MOTORIZED VEHICLE is being towed the unit is considered a "combination" and the rules for braking change. It then becomes a performance requirement (same for WA and OR). If you can stop in XX feet from XX mph then you don't need supplemental braking. But I wouldn't tow anything at highway speeds without brakes either.
Deen - Vancouver, WA
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Deen
Vancouver, WA
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427435 wrote:Oh yes, the operater's manual also clearly says that anything being towed that weighs more than 1500 lbs needs its own brakes. That's a Ford requirement (same for Workhorse) but not a statement of law. But a very few states do have requirements for toads but it's not many states.
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Deen
Vancouver, WA
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driveby wrote:A qualified hitch guy probably knows as much as GS does.
Now that's funny!! 
GS woudl have structural engineers approve the design, doubt that a hitch "guy" would be able to do a stress analysis.
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427435
Rochester, Mn
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Deen wrote:427435 wrote:Oh yes, the operater's manual also clearly says that anything being towed that weighs more than 1500 lbs needs its own brakes. That's a Ford requirement (same for Workhorse) but not a statement of law. But a very few states do have requirements for toads but it's not many states.
If there's a choice between listening to Ford's engineers or the typical state politican, I know which one I'm paying attention to.
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driveby
Vancouver BC Canada
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Deen wrote:driveby wrote:A qualified hitch guy probably knows as much as GS does.
Now that's funny!!
GS would have structural engineers approve the design, doubt that a hitch "guy" would be able to do a stress analysis.
normally I'd agree with but in this case Ford has already allowed a 5K hitch and if GS followed the frame extension rules set out by Ford, or bought the right wheelbase, how it is different? They just cheaped out on and put a 3500# hitch instead of a 5K. Although I think I'd as GS why for real. Just cost or was there more???
Being around Engineers I fully respect them and their talents but I've seen my share of "School of Hardknocks" Engineers that know as much or more about real world applications. That is what I meant by Qualified Hitch Guy - likely not the guy installing the Uhaul hitches for a summer job but the guy who runs a business all the time. Either way I wouldn't do it but I can see how someone would/could.
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SteveRankin
Sequim, WA
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Deen wrote:tahiti16 wrote:Not only can you not exceed the GCVWR but in CA if what is being towed is over 1500lbs it is required to have brakes. Another wrong statement!
When a MOTORIZED VEHICLE is being towed the unit is considered a "combination" and the rules for braking change. It then becomes a performance requirement (same for WA and OR). If you can stop in XX feet from XX mph then you don't need supplemental braking. But I wouldn't tow anything at highway speeds without brakes either.
Sorry Deen, but you are the one that is wrong.
California Vehicle Code wrote:26303. Every trailer coach and every camp trailer having a gross weight of 1,500 pounds or more, but exclusive of passengers, shall be equipped with brakes on at least two wheels which are adequate, supplemental to the brakes on the towing vehicle, to enable the combination of vehicles to comply with the stopping distance requirements of Section 26454.
Amended Ch. 1536, Stats. 1971. Operative May 3, 1972.
Washington RCW 46.37.340 Braking equipment required. wrote:(3) Brakes on all wheels. Every vehicle shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels except:
(a) Trailers, semitrailers, or pole trailers of a gross weight not exceeding three thousand pounds, ...
Washington requires brakes on every wheel, including the trailer EXCEPT for trailer under 3000#. However, the code goes on to say that even vehicle towing those lightweight trailers must meet the performance requirement you referred to.
Additionally, WA Code states:
Washington RCW 46.37.340 Braking equipment required. wrote:
(4) Automatic trailer brake application upon breakaway. Every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer equipped with air or vacuum actuated brakes and every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer with a gross weight in excess of three thousand pounds, manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1964, shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels and of such character as to be applied automatically and promptly, and remain applied for at least fifteen minutes, upon breakaway from the towing vehicle.
There are no exceptions, and's, if's or but's on the breakaway requirement.
Steve & C. J.
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SteveRankin
Sequim, WA
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driveby wrote:Deen wrote:driveby wrote:A qualified hitch guy probably knows as much as GS does.
Now that's funny!!
GS would have structural engineers approve the design, doubt that a hitch "guy" would be able to do a stress analysis.
normally I'd agree with but in this case Ford has already allowed a 5K hitch and if GS followed the frame extension rules set out by Ford, or bought the right wheelbase, how it is different? They just cheaped out on and put a 3500# hitch instead of a 5K. Although I think I'd as GS why for real. Just cost or was there more???
Being around Engineers I fully respect them and their talents but I've seen my share of "School of Hardknocks" Engineers that know as much or more about real world applications. That is what I meant by Qualified Hitch Guy - likely not the guy installing the Uhaul hitches for a summer job but the guy who runs a business all the time. Either way I wouldn't do it but I can see how someone would/could.
Yes, Ford may have allowed for the installation of a 5K# hitch, and Ford may have allowed for a frame extension. However, that does not mean that Ford says it is OK to do all of the above. Reality is that you think that GS just cheaped out and installed a 3500# hitch instead of a 5000# hitch. When you extend the frame you also make major changes to the forces that a towed vehicle imparts on the chassis; both structurally and in terms of stability.
You say that a 'qualified hitch guy' knows as much as the GS engineers. What makes a hitch installer a 'qualified hitch guy'? That you agree with him? A 'qualified hitch guy' may be able to install a beautifully crafted hitch, but he still knows diddly about the rest of your vehicle. A hitch installer is a hitch installer. He's not a mechanic or an engineer. He's not even much of a welder!
Why is it that so many shade-tree mechanics think they know better than engineers?
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ernestfortier
Palmdale, Calif.
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SteveRankin wrote:Deen wrote:tahiti16 wrote:Not only can you not exceed the GCVWR but in CA if what is being towed is over 1500lbs it is required to have brakes. Another wrong statement!
When a MOTORIZED VEHICLE is being towed the unit is considered a "combination" and the rules for braking change. It then becomes a performance requirement (same for WA and OR). If you can stop in XX feet from XX mph then you don't need supplemental braking. But I wouldn't tow anything at highway speeds without brakes either.
Sorry Deen, but you are the one that is wrong.
California Vehicle Code wrote:26303. Every trailer coach and every camp trailer having a gross weight of 1,500 pounds or more, but exclusive of passengers, shall be equipped with brakes on at least two wheels which are adequate, supplemental to the brakes on the towing vehicle, to enable the combination of vehicles to comply with the stopping distance requirements of Section 26454.
Amended Ch. 1536, Stats. 1971. Operative May 3, 1972.
Washington RCW 46.37.340 Braking equipment required. wrote:(3) Brakes on all wheels. Every vehicle shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels except:
(a) Trailers, semitrailers, or pole trailers of a gross weight not exceeding three thousand pounds, ...
Washington requires brakes on every wheel, including the trailer EXCEPT for trailer under 3000#. However, the code goes on to say that even vehicle towing those lightweight trailers must meet the performance requirement you referred to.
Additionally, WA Code states:
Washington RCW 46.37.340 Braking equipment required. wrote:
(4) Automatic trailer brake application upon breakaway. Every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer equipped with air or vacuum actuated brakes and every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer with a gross weight in excess of three thousand pounds, manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1964, shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels and of such character as to be applied automatically and promptly, and remain applied for at least fifteen minutes, upon breakaway from the towing vehicle.
There are no exceptions, and's, if's or but's on the breakaway requirement.
Steve, You are the one who is wrong on this one at least for California. Read the Calif law that you copied. It states every trailer coach and every camp trailer. It doesn't mention towed vehicles. Towed vehicles are mentioned in another section and it does state that the towing vehicle must stop the toad in XXX distance at XXX speed. That is the determining factor as to when you need supplimental braking in Calif.
Ernie Fortier
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driveby
Vancouver BC Canada
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OK I should clarify #1 I don't think the OP should do this. Too much weight for the desired combination IMHO. I tow ~3500# with 55 more HP and alot more torque (07 V10 vs the 2000 version) and recently decided that changing TOADs to an almost 5K combo wouldn't make me a happy driver anymore.
However I guess what I'm saying that there is a difference between being tested and blessed by and an engineer and a non engineer who knows how to make things strong. Now I agree with the comments above- before I'd attempt this I'd find out why GS has the lower rating. You're right, I'm guessing it is due to the hitch and if that is the only reason then changing hitches would up the rating (because Ford already said it was OK). That would be the only reason it would be OK. I say this because I work with Engineers and unless they've specifically tested that combo they're going to say no - it's there backsides on the line. I can accept that. However just because and engineer says he hasn't tested it, doesn't mean it won't work. That was my point.
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