topflite51
In The Desert of Nevada
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Well, I for one will continue using my CC's, getting my refunds/rebates or whatever, pay them off at the end of the month and let those who wish to carry cash and pay the same as I do, continue to do so. I can't help it, if there are those people who think that saving 5% is not saving. That 5% is a lot better than most MM accounts, CD's or whatever.
JohnA, you take credit cards because you want to, not because you have to? People who bring their Caddy's into you for service, won't take them to the Ford dealer across the street for service because you don't take credit cards. You take CC's because it is a convenience for both you and your customer.
DickA, not every place takes checks or even travelers checks. We were in a small town in ID this summer where no checks were accepted, at least that is what the sign said at the checkout stand. I have to admit I didn't ask to cash a check. They did however accept visa, mc, discover, amex and atm cards and they accepted cash also, what a novel idea.
I guess I do believe in the tooth fairy, ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK
 David
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topflite51
In The Desert of Nevada
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JALLEN4 wrote:topflite51 wrote:Until they start offering cash discounts for purchases that are equal to the cash back offers on the cards, we will continue to use the CC's. I still contend that people who are paying cash for their purchases, while I am using the card's, are helping to support the merchants and in so doing are supporting me, and I have to thank them for their generosity. If I spend 1000 dollars on the card, I get back on one card 5%, that means I get $50 back. That $50 dollars more than my neighbor has who always pays cash. If you do this consistantly, sooner or latter you are talking about a nice chunk of money. I fully realize that there are merchants out there that do not like the kind of card I and others use, that is their problem. I didn't ask any of them to take credit cards, that was their choice. Some of course will attempt to tell you they did not have a choice, but they really did and they still do.
I commend those who have figured out and take advantage of the system. But anyone can readily see that if the credit card company gives back 5% and only charges the merchant 2-3%, there is a catch somewhere.
No, any retailer doing volume within a competitive business does not have a choice. We only take cards for parts and service and yes I do take the cost of cards into account when I price my merchandise.
My real problem is that I didn't come up with the idea first and do something about it. We have an entire invented system skimming two or three percent off the top of the economy and an entire populace defending and praising them. Now that is a good business! Yes there is a catch, they expect people NOT to pay their balances off monthly, we do. I don't have the foggiest idea even what the interest is on my 5% rebate card, nor do I care.
You say, a retailer doing volume within a competitive business has no choice. Just how many Caddy dealers are in your area? I think you have a choice.
You are right about your real problem. You are jealous, and you lament about the fact that you didn't think up the system first. Since you didn't, you give it a bad name, you call it skimming. Again I say, you do not have to participate in the skimming system, you do so by choice.
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JALLEN4
OHIO
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topflite51 wrote:JALLEN4 wrote:topflite51 wrote:Until they start offering cash discounts for purchases that are equal to the cash back offers on the cards, we will continue to use the CC's. I still contend that people who are paying cash for their purchases, while I am using the card's, are helping to support the merchants and in so doing are supporting me, and I have to thank them for their generosity. If I spend 1000 dollars on the card, I get back on one card 5%, that means I get $50 back. That $50 dollars more than my neighbor has who always pays cash. If you do this consistantly, sooner or latter you are talking about a nice chunk of money. I fully realize that there are merchants out there that do not like the kind of card I and others use, that is their problem. I didn't ask any of them to take credit cards, that was their choice. Some of course will attempt to tell you they did not have a choice, but they really did and they still do.
I commend those who have figured out and take advantage of the system. But anyone can readily see that if the credit card company gives back 5% and only charges the merchant 2-3%, there is a catch somewhere.
No, any retailer doing volume within a competitive business does not have a choice. We only take cards for parts and service and yes I do take the cost of cards into account when I price my merchandise.
My real problem is that I didn't come up with the idea first and do something about it. We have an entire invented system skimming two or three percent off the top of the economy and an entire populace defending and praising them. Now that is a good business! Yes there is a catch, they expect people NOT to pay their balances off monthly, we do. I don't have the foggiest idea even what the interest is on my 5% rebate card, nor do I care.
You say, a retailer doing volume within a competitive business has no choice. Just how many Caddy dealers are in your area? I think you have a choice.
You are right about your real problem. You are jealous, and you lament about the fact that you didn't think up the system first. Since you didn't, you give it a bad name, you call it skimming. Again I say, you do not have to participate in the skimming system, you do so by choice.
Actually there are three in a ten mile radius and a dozen in a fifty mile radius. A little competition.
I am not opposed to credit cards as a tool and an expediter of commerce. The original cards, where the balance was due monthly or you couldn't use them next month, was fine.
The problem came when they were transformed into revolving credit at an average interest rate exceeding 20%. Coupled with low payments, this debt became perpetual for the 69% of people who do not pay the full balance monthly. Bottom line, this has become 950 billion in unsecured debt to the American consumer. That meltdown could be even more glorious than the 700 billion bailout of secured mortgages!
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ryoung
Indiana
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JALLEN4 wrote:My real problem is that I didn't come up with the idea first and do something about it. We have an entire invented system skimming two or three percent off the top of the economy and an entire populace defending and praising them. Now that is a good business!
Exactly!
Look at it another way. Instead of charging (skimming) the retailer for using the card, what if the credit card companies solely charged the user of the card.
How much do you think the yearly fee would be for a credit card? Would you pay hundreds or maybe thousands of dollars for a card just for the "convenience" and "free stuff" that it offers?
Do you think credit card companies could exist with just the revenue from the yearly fee?
ryoung
* This post was
edited 10/14/08 05:45am by ryoung *
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trkrhelp
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macira wrote:JBIRISH As far as the cc's go I haven't paid any fees directly. AS to the various Bozos, Ican't vouch for them. "THEY" whomever "They" may be may well have cooked the books.
What all the above seems to mean is "HUH?"
I think that what you're missing is that the 3% is built into the price you pay for things in the store. There is an extra markup on EVERYTHING to cover the cost of paying card fees and most places don't offer a "cash discount" - in fact according to the original Visa/MC rules you didn't used to be allowed to do that.
Here's how retail works - I buy something for $100 and in order to pay the bills and make a reasonable profit I need to mark it up let's say 50% to keep the math simple. So I sell that for $150 (150% * 100). Now along come credit cards so I need to figure the 3% for the credit card fee into this equation. It's not 3% 100 it's 3% of 150 as that's what I pay the card fee on. So to take a credit card I need to charge $154.50 - so the price is now $154.50 no matter how you pay. Whether you realize it or not you are paying the fee in the cost of everything you buy. If we didn't have credit cards the item would be $150. So everyone who shops is paying the fee on everything they buy.
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trkrhelp
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ryoung wrote:
Look at it another way. Instead of charging (skimming) the retailer for using the card, what if the credit card companies solely charged the user of the card.
How much do you think the yearly fee would be for a credit card? Would you pay hundreds or maybe thousands of dollars for a card just for the "convenience" and "free stuff" that it offers?
Do you think credit card companies could exist with just the revenue from the yearly fee?
ryoung
I've always objected to having to PAY for the privilege of taking someones CC - but we don't really have a choice. Would be nice if we could stop the banks from burning the candle at both ends. But the reality is people like paying the HIDDEN fee (they get something for nothing right  ) but they would all gripe at paying a real fee.
It's the old shell game - why do you think Buy 1 Get 6 Free works at the firecracker booth 
To the poster who thinks merchants take credit cards by choice - open a retail business and refuse to take credit cards and see how long your business lasts. It's not a choice in todays world it's a requirement. If you don't take CC they'll go somewhere else 'cause they get "points" when they use their card 
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topflite51
In The Desert of Nevada
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It is so funny how some just don't get it. If the price is $150.00 and you pay by cash, 30 days later you are still out $150.00. If on the otherhand I use my 5% cash back card, 30 days later I am out only $142.50. It is not hard to figure. Until merchants, start giving discounts for cash equal to the cash back card, I will continue to use them. Simple enough. Yes, merchants have to raise the price to cover the cost of accepting the credit cards, that really is their problem and the problem of their cash paying customers. Credit cards are tools, I use mine in an allowable way that benefits me and mine. How others use them, is their business. If they are not used wisely, is their choice not mine.
There are a lot of small businesses that do not accept credit cards, at least here in Nevada, I bet there are in other states also. Of course someone will want to argue that is why they are small, and I will argue that is why they don't have to run to their closest loan shark and borrow money every time they turn around.
The problem with credit cards and cheap credit, it allows both the consumer and the business owner not to use the space between their ears. I owned a small franchised business, it grew from 4 people to 30+. I accepted the company credit card, it was in the contract that I had to. I did not however accept Visa or Mastercard or whatever they were called at that time, when I sold the business, that was the first change the new owner implemented. For whatever reason 3 years later, he was broke. He couldn't raise the prices to cover the costs of accepting those additional cards, the competition and area would not and could not support it. In his last year, he was having to go to the shysters and borrow money just to meet payroll. A business that has to do that constantly, is a business that should not be in existance. Eventually, as I said he wasn't.
Should also add I don't let the acceptance or non acceptance of credit cards control my expenditures, that would be foolish. What controls my expenditures is price, quality of product and or service.
* This post was
edited 10/14/08 09:17am by topflite51 *
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topflite51
In The Desert of Nevada
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JALLEN4 wrote "Actually there are three in a ten mile radius and a dozen in a fifty mile radius. A little competition."
That many Cadillac dealers, that close together? You, must really be in an affluent area. I guess the economy in Ohio is not as bad as the media says.
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ryoung
Indiana
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topflite51 wrote:It is so funny how some just don't get it.
We do get it. What I and others are trying to debunk is the thought that it's "Lots and lots of free meals and free stuff."
I also use my credit card, yeah I only have one card, as a convenience. But I surely recognize that I'm not getting this as a free service.
The worst curse and biggest cost of the credit card is yet to come. The $950 Billion worth of outstanding credit card debt. As with mortgages, banks bundle groups of so-called credit-card receivables, essentially consumers' outstanding balances, and sell them to big investors such as hedge funds and pension funds. Big issuers offload roughly 70% of their credit-card debt. And as the econcomy worsens more credit card debtors are going to default on there credit loans. It will eventually collaspe with many investors holding worthless paper of credit debt.
True, it pales in comparison to the mortgage crisis, but it's just another scheme where the American consumer has been fleeced again.
ryoung
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PopBeavers
San Jose, CA
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trkrhelp wrote:macira wrote:JBIRISH As far as the cc's go I haven't paid any fees directly. AS to the various Bozos, Ican't vouch for them. "THEY" whomever "They" may be may well have cooked the books.
What all the above seems to mean is "HUH?"
I think that what you're missing is that the 3% is built into the price you pay for things in the store. There is an extra markup on EVERYTHING to cover the cost of paying card fees and most places don't offer a "cash discount" - in fact according to the original Visa/MC rules you didn't used to be allowed to do that.
Here's how retail works - I buy something for $100 and in order to pay the bills and make a reasonable profit I need to mark it up let's say 50% to keep the math simple. So I sell that for $150 (150% * 100). Now along come credit cards so I need to figure the 3% for the credit card fee into this equation. It's not 3% 100 it's 3% of 150 as that's what I pay the card fee on. So to take a credit card I need to charge $154.50 - so the price is now $154.50 no matter how you pay. Whether you realize it or not you are paying the fee in the cost of everything you buy. If we didn't have credit cards the item would be $150. So everyone who shops is paying the fee on everything they buy.
Not exactly.
Imagine the following two scenarios:
1. a retail business does not accept cc, and does a million dollars a year in gross revenue.
2. they start taking cc and suddenly business is 10 fold bigger, running 10 million dollars a year in gross revenue.
I would think that the business could absorb the three percent, especially when the markup is 50 percent as in your example. If adding cc causes volume to increase substantially, then it is perhaps cheaper than the alternative ways to increase business (ads, flyers, telephone solicitations, superbowl ads)
My math falls apart in retail grocery where the markup is about 3 percent. Which, btw, explains why grocery stores have so many non food items, they have a larger markup.
Wayne in San Jose
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